tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post114562973739340872..comments2024-03-22T19:12:22.089+11:00Comments on One Salient Oversight: Avoiding the mandate - the resultNeil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)http://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post-45319592218213222742009-05-05T19:02:00.000+10:002009-05-05T19:02:00.000+10:00cheap wow power leveling buy wow gold cheapest wow...cheap <A HREF="http://www.wowpowerleveling.me/" REL="nofollow">wow power leveling</A> buy <A HREF="http://www.wowgold-powerleveling.com/" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A> cheapest <A HREF="http://www.wowgold-powerleveling.com/" REL="nofollow">wow power leveling</A> CHEAP <A HREF="www.wowpowerleveling.me/" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A> BUY <A HREF="http://www.wowgold-powerleveling.com/" REL="nofollow">power leveling</A> CHEAPEST <A HREF="http://www.wowgold-powerleveling.com/" REL="nofollow">wow powerleveling</A> YangQiang<br /><A HREF="http://www.globalsale.me/" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A><A HREF="http://www.cheapgamegold.org" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A><A HREF="http://www.cheap-gamegold.org" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A><A HREF="http://www.gamegoldvip.org" REL="nofollow">wow gold</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post-1145770859967214502006-04-23T15:40:00.000+10:002006-04-23T15:40:00.000+10:00Ali,Is it possible, however, that there are biblic...Ali,<BR/><BR/><I>Is it possible, however, that there are biblical requirements outside of those three that should be looked for?</I><BR/><BR/>I think maybe in certain specific situations it would be obvious. For example, if I was to go and pastor a church full of Turkish immigrants who all spoke Turkish I would fail to pastor them properly because I don't know their language.<BR/><BR/>I suppose what I'm talking about here is general requirements - the absolute minimum required for anyone to be a pastor. I don't think it is in the interests of the church to place unbiblical constraints for what God has already given to us clearly in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the Deacons:<BR/><BR/>I think <I>being full of the Spirit and wisdom</I> is essentially the same as Christian character and good doctrine. 1 Timothy 3.8-13 gives some more qualifications for Deacons and I don't think these are "in addition to" what is described in Acts.<BR/><BR/>The major difference between Deacons (diakonos) and Elders / Overseers (presbuteros and episkopos) is:<BR/><BR/>1. Deacons have a more "practical" function of helping people within the church.<BR/>2. Elders have the responsibility to "rule" over a church.<BR/>3. Some Elders also have teaching responsibility.<BR/><BR/>I'm betraying my Presbyterianism at this point. I'm an Elder in my church and our church is "ruled" by a group of Elders (called a "session"), of which our pastor is also a member. Some of our Elders (including myself and obviously our pastor) also have a teaching responsibility, though the other elders do not have a teaching responsibility (they don't see it as a gift that they can exercise).<BR/><BR/>Like Calvin, however, I'm not going to say that the Presbyterian model is "the best". I think there is enough leeway given in scripture for different models although I would contend that the extreme Episocopal model practiced by many Anglicans and the extreme Congregational model practiced by many Baptists do not fit in with what the Bible says.<BR/><BR/>I'm happy if:<BR/><BR/>1. The pastor is of good character, has good doctrine and can teach.<BR/>2. That other leaders in the church (deacons and elders, whatever you want to call them) have at least good doctrine and are of good character.<BR/><BR/>In the latter case I'm talking about members of the session (in Pressie churches) or the church committee (Anglican), youth leaders and childrens leaders, bible study group leaders, service leaders, musicians - basically anyone who is involved in leading stuff in church.Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post-1145732301622662372006-04-23T04:58:00.000+10:002006-04-23T04:58:00.000+10:00OK that makes more sense. I would agree that there...OK that makes more sense. I would agree that there are moral breaches that would prevent continuing ministry; I think unaddressed and flagrant alcoholism would be one. I was uncomfortable with the idea of pastors being raised up to a falsely elevated standard.<BR/><BR/>I do like the emphasis on the teaching ministry. It's not something which I've specifically been trained in but I'm finding it to be more and more the core of what I believe my ministry to be.Sam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post-1145695224332180922006-04-22T18:40:00.000+10:002006-04-22T18:40:00.000+10:00Sam,I wrote something very short about this a few ...Sam,<BR/><BR/>I wrote something very short about this a few months ago. This is a bit more detailed.<BR/><BR/>"Above Reproach" in 1 Timothy 3.2 is essentially explained by Paul's comments in 3.2-7. In other words, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable etc etc.<BR/><BR/>I don't think it has to do with the congregation being upset when they hear the truth.<BR/><BR/><I>On top of which there is the basic truth that we are none of us worthy, no not one - and who can stand as 'above reproach'?</I><BR/><BR/>Again this depends upon the fuller explanation of what Paul speaks about in 1 Timothy 3.2-7.<BR/><BR/>I don't think Paul is here saying that pastors have to be sinless. What he is saying, however, is that Pastors do need to meet some level of morality, rather than being perfect.<BR/><BR/>For example, when Paul speaks of the pastor as being "not a drunkard", he is not saying that a person can't be a pastor if they have gotten drunk once. But it is saying that a person who calls himself a brother in Christ who regularly pops down to the <I>Kebab and Calculator</I> to get blind drunk can't exactly be seen as a potential elder.<BR/><BR/>Article 26 is mainly about the efficacy of God to work through pastors who are quite off track (as opposed to the ordinary ones whose sin is not so bad). The idea is that the efficacy of the word and sacraments is not dependent upon the person delivering them, but upon God's good grace. Article 26 finishes with the great line <I>Nevertheless it appertaineth to the discipline of the Church that inquiry be made of evil ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty by just judgement, be deposed.</I> This indicates that article 26 was directed towards gross sinners and not just ordinary sinners.<BR/><BR/>BTW - my blog article was written with the presumption of Sola Srciptura in mind.Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14237465.post-1145691742876217782006-04-22T17:42:00.000+10:002006-04-22T17:42:00.000+10:00Just got this through as an e-mail from you - but ...Just got this through as an e-mail from you - but haven't you written on those three marks before? The one thing that worries me about an exclusive element on those three is in fact the first, in particular where 1 Timothy talks about being 'above reproach'. It seems to me that part of the calling of Christian leadership is sometimes (necessarily) to invite reproach, in order to challenge assumptions. I suspect that if a pastor is never reproached by a congregation then there me be some salt lacking. On top of which there is the basic truth that we are none of us worthy, no not one - and who can stand as 'above reproach'? If we are led by grace then we can trust that God achieves his purposes through frail and broken vessels. So I think the penitent and contrite heart is of more value in Christian leadership than someone who might just be a whitened sepulchre. (We're not supposed to separate the wheat from the tares are we?) <BR/><BR/>What do you make of Article 26 of the 39 articles? Do you think it's wrong?Sam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.com